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I had chicken avocado and boiled egg ! So you can stick your Brisket in your pipe and smoke it ! Metaphorically speaking 

Right, here are some pearls of wisdom about the merits of grass-fed beef vs corn-fed beef from the Hawksmoor book that I've summarised  (the book is excellent, btw – loads of great recipes and a great

Great synopsis! And totally agree with the pork reference . I love it and share that same abbotoir as Justin . And the pork is sublime .  The problem the USA has is the number of people and speed

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Right, here are some pearls of wisdom about the merits of grass-fed beef vs corn-fed beef from the Hawksmoor book that I've summarised  (the book is excellent, btw – loads of great recipes and a great drinks section). I can't vouch for the accuracy of what they say, but I'd be surprised if it was wide of the mark. Of course, they're not going to criticise their own product, but I'd be very interested to hear what other forumers think.

---

They visit Tim Wilson's farm in North Yorkshire. The cows graze on grass made up of several old-fashioned varieties that would have grown in the area 100 years ago. They say most farms use a cheap, reliable Italian rye grass mix, but this particular farm uses red and white clover, meadow fescue, chicory, cock's-foot and Yorkshire fog. 

In the States, most cattle spend their days eating dried and flaked GM corn mixed with high-protein supplements. 

They quote Mark Schatzker's Steak book, in which he describes opening his car door and being greeted by "the olfactory wallop of 32,000 defecating cattle", with a strong wind containing "fecal dust". "They were crowded together, 50,000 of them, in numbers and concentration you wouldn't ever find in nature, standing in textbook filth next to an open-air sewage lagoon, eating a powdery substance [flaked corn] that was dispensed by a truck."

The cattle munch away, putting on weight very quickly, and this rapid weight gain is the key to the high levels of intra-muscular fat (ie, marbling) that the USDA looks for when grading meat.

The Hawksmoor cattle are sent to slaughter after 30 months or so, while in the States it's usually 12-14 months, and after growth hormones are administered to help them gain huge amounts of muscle mass.

A cow's digestive system isn't designed to cope with corn, especially not in the quantities they eat on cattle farms, so antibiotics are regularly given to prevent their guts and livers from failing – cattle consume 70% of all antibiotics administered in the US.

They quote from Harold McGee's McGee on Food and Cooking, who says that grass, a living leafy plant, is high in "odorous substances". Dried corn isn't, not does it contain many nutrients, whereas grass is rich in Vitamin B, as well as Vitamin E and beta-carotene.

As a result, grass-fed beef has a decent level of Omega 3 fatty acids, whereas American beef may contain traces of antibiotics, hormones and growth promoters, which is why it's illegal to import it directly to the UK (it has to be done via Ireland or Holland).

They say that corn-fed beef is rather one-dimensional, whereas grass-fed is more rounded and complex, and while they've enjoyed some corn-fed steaks, most have disappointed, with many "bland and oily with an unsatisfyingly mushy texture", which might explain why many Americans often reach for the steak sauce. 

They also bemoan the fact that in Argentina, feedlots are now the norm, and after the 2001 economic crash there, "swathes of lush, fertile pasture [were] converted into soya bean and corn crops, which at the time were fetching a good price on the global market. Cattle were diverted to poorer grazing land and more and more were herded into giant feedlots to gorge on dried flaked corn. Up until 1990, all Argentinian beef was grass-fed, but by 2009, 75% of beef came from feedlots…and by 2011, the Argentina Independent said it was almost impossible to buy grass-fed beef in the country." 

They add that just because beef is grass-fed, it doesn't automatically make it good. As grass is a living plant, there are many variables that determine its nutritional value, such as the varieties planted, the location, the temperature, the time of year and the soil etc. Some pastures will be missing minerals and nutrients if the land was previously used for intensive farming – and they say this is why it's very difficult to rear cattle on grass in many areas of the US. 

Also, in winter, the cows at the Yorkshire farm are in the barn eating hay and "haylage" (halfway between hay and silage), and in the final six weeks of their lives, they do eat some grain in the form of barley (along with peas, broad beans, mixed with a little molasses) – the farmer says this is to ensure they put down a thick layer of backfat, which is essential if the carcasses are going to be hung for a decent amount of time. 

Oh, and regarding the USDA classification: they say it was devised by cattlemen in the Midwest in the 1920s during an agricultural recession, in an effort to boost demand. They managed to persuade the country that "the muscular tissues of animals are made tender and fully flavoured only by the presence of plenty of fat".

---

As I mentioned before, I did try both types side by side at a steak restaurant in London a few years ago. I was expecting both to be great, but I found the grass-fed vastly superior. The corn-fed steak had a soft, almost buttery texture, but it just lacked a beefy oomph that I love with good steaks I've had (in the UK). The restaurant manager said he personally preferred the corn-fed, so I guess it's just matter of taste. And I know some people don't like their meat to have that full-on "meaty" (for want of a better word) taste. Really good pork, for example, does have that slightly funky, farmyard whiff to it (!) which some/many people don't like, and obviously offal isn't to all tastes. But let me know what you think 😀

 

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Yes. I have read before in a Sunday paper  that most US cattle is raised like that. It is crazy. USDA. No thanks. I like beef to taste of beef. Not saying uk farming practice is across the board fantastic but buy local is what i do and the beef I buy is great. 

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1 hour ago, sub333 said:

Right, here are some pearls of wisdom about the merits of grass-fed beef vs corn-fed beef from the Hawksmoor book that I've summarised  (the book is excellent, btw – loads of great recipes and a great drinks section). I can't vouch for the accuracy of what they say, but I'd be surprised if it was wide of the mark. Of course, they're not going to criticise their own product, but I'd be very interested to hear what other forumers think.

---

They visit Tim Wilson's farm in North Yorkshire. The cows graze on grass made up of several old-fashioned varieties that would have grown in the area 100 years ago. They say most farms use a cheap, reliable Italian rye grass mix, but this particular farm uses red and white clover, meadow fescue, chicory, cock's-foot and Yorkshire fog. 

In the States, most cattle spend their days eating dried and flaked GM corn mixed with high-protein supplements. 

They quote Mark Schatzker's Steak book, in which he describes opening his car door and being greeted by "the olfactory wallop of 32,000 defecating cattle", with a strong wind containing "fecal dust". "They were crowded together, 50,000 of them, in numbers and concentration you wouldn't ever find in nature, standing in textbook filth next to an open-air sewage lagoon, eating a powdery substance [flaked corn] that was dispensed by a truck."

The cattle munch away, putting on weight very quickly, and this rapid weight gain is the key to the high levels of intra-muscular fat (ie, marbling) that the USDA looks for when grading meat.

The Hawksmoor cattle are sent to slaughter after 30 months or so, while in the States it's usually 12-14 months, and after growth hormones are administered to help them gain huge amounts of muscle mass.

A cow's digestive system isn't designed to cope with corn, especially not in the quantities they eat on cattle farms, so antibiotics are regularly given to prevent their guts and livers from failing – cattle consume 70% of all antibiotics administered in the US.

They quote from Harold McGee's McGee on Food and Cooking, who says that grass, a living leafy plant, is high in "odorous substances". Dried corn isn't, not does it contain many nutrients, whereas grass is rich in Vitamin B, as well as Vitamin E and beta-carotene.

As a result, grass-fed beef has a decent level of Omega 3 fatty acids, whereas American beef may contain traces of antibiotics, hormones and growth promoters, which is why it's illegal to import it directly to the UK (it has to be done via Ireland or Holland).

They say that corn-fed beef is rather one-dimensional, whereas grass-fed is more rounded and complex, and while they've enjoyed some corn-fed steaks, most have disappointed, with many "bland and oily with an unsatisfyingly mushy texture", which might explain why many Americans often reach for the steak sauce. 

They also bemoan the fact that in Argentina, feedlots are now the norm, and after the 2001 economic crash there, "swathes of lush, fertile pasture [were] converted into soya bean and corn crops, which at the time were fetching a good price on the global market. Cattle were diverted to poorer grazing land and more and more were herded into giant feedlots to gorge on dried flaked corn. Up until 1990, all Argentinian beef was grass-fed, but by 2009, 75% of beef came from feedlots…and by 2011, the Argentina Independent said it was almost impossible to buy grass-fed beef in the country." 

They add that just because beef is grass-fed, it doesn't automatically make it good. As grass is a living plant, there are many variables that determine its nutritional value, such as the varieties planted, the location, the temperature, the time of year and the soil etc. Some pastures will be missing minerals and nutrients if the land was previously used for intensive farming – and they say this is why it's very difficult to rear cattle on grass in many areas of the US. 

Also, in winter, the cows at the Yorkshire farm are in the barn eating hay and "haylage" (halfway between hay and silage), and in the final six weeks of their lives, they do eat some grain in the form of barley (along with peas, broad beans, mixed with a little molasses) – the farmer says this is to ensure they put down a thick layer of backfat, which is essential if the carcasses are going to be hung for a decent amount of time. 

Oh, and regarding the USDA classification: they say it was devised by cattlemen in the Midwest in the 1920s during an agricultural recession, in an effort to boost demand. They managed to persuade the country that "the muscular tissues of animals are made tender and fully flavoured only by the presence of plenty of fat".

---

As I mentioned before, I did try both types side by side at a steak restaurant in London a few years ago. I was expecting both to be great, but I found the grass-fed vastly superior. The corn-fed steak had a soft, almost buttery texture, but it just lacked a beefy oomph that I love with good steaks I've had (in the UK). The restaurant manager said he personally preferred the corn-fed, so I guess it's just matter of taste. And I know some people don't like their meat to have that full-on "meaty" (for want of a better word) taste. Really good pork, for example, does have that slightly funky, farmyard whiff to it (!) which some/many people don't like, and obviously offal isn't to all tastes. But let me know what you think 😀

 

Great synopsis! And totally agree with the pork reference . I love it and share that same abbotoir as Justin . And the pork is sublime . 

The problem the USA has is the number of people and speed to market . They go through cycles due to good or bad crop seasons . And 4 years ago crops were bad which affected beef cattle . So beef prices go up . The quality gets neglected and they are told this is beef . 

It’s  a bit like the tomato or tomatoe 😂

Home grown or responsible growers provide a product that tastes what it should taste like . But over the years we suffered this bland cheap mass market imposters ! Whom infiltrated our restaurants and supermarkets. I still have nightmares of a salad from  the 1980’s 

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I didn't want to quote the whole thing but thanks so much for writing that out. It's fascinating stuff and answers a lot of questions I had - definitely gives the vibe that British meat, especially beef, has its advantages.

Would love to be able to try them side by side as well, it sounds like there's a huge difference!

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11 hours ago, sub333 said:

Right, here are some pearls of wisdom about the merits of grass-fed beef vs corn-fed beef from the Hawksmoor book that I've summarised 

@sub333  Thanks for taking the time to read and retype all that! Very interesting. 

I had also read about US farming standards not being what we strive for in the UK (chlorinated chicken anyone?). And USDA being no indication of the quality of the rearing or husbandry, just how much intramuscular fat there is.

Thanks again, Phil.

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Chlorinated chicken, it is not the chlorine washing that is the problem to be fair:

"US chicken has been banned in the EU since 1997 because of this chlorine washing process. But this isn’t because the treatment itself has been deemed dangerous. A report by the EU Scientific Committee on Veterinary Measures, for example, highlighted that the chemical cleaning treatment can be effective at removing food-borne pathogens depending on how it is used. The real fear is that heavily soiled birds may not be sufficiently disinfected, and that relying on chlorine washing could lead to poorer hygiene standards overall"

 

Chicken farms in the US do not have regulation preventing cramming them in  together (battery farming) if you like and as such they use chlorine solution to wash always pathogens because off that. so washing is not the issue, battery farming is the issue.  Chicken  in this country can be very cheap and there is plenty of examples of farming chickens close together  in barns with regulated temps and moisture and automatic feed, they look little like chickens with fewer feathers

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US beef is banned in the UK i think  In trade negotiations the eu has accepted a quote system on us beef which i guess is why US beef currently comes into the UK via eu countries because recently UK can not ban imports for the EU (free trade) . Does not change the fact that US beef is banned in the UK  and cannot be imported directly into the UK.  It is perverse.   Support UK beef

"At present, US beef exports to Europe are limited by a 45,000-tonne quota for grain-fed, hormone-free beef. The quota was created in 2009 as part of the settlement of a long-running World Trade Organisation dispute over the EU’s continuing ban on hormones in beef"

"The quota is not exclusive to the US, however, and in recent years Australia and South American countries have taken a growing share of the quota. Now the commission has promised to open talks on reserving a share of this quota specifically for the US."

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7 hours ago, Phlashster said:

@sub333  Thanks for taking the time to read and retype all that! Very interesting. 

I had also read about US farming standards not being what we strive for in the UK (chlorinated chicken anyone?). And USDA being no indication of the quality of the rearing or husbandry, just how much intramuscular fat there is.

Thanks again, Phil.

That seems to be the point... The majority of USA beef comes from cows fed on grain because that's the quickest way to fatten them up. The resulting meat has a high fat content (measured by the marbling) and therefore gets graded highly by the USDA. From what I can tell, this message gets 'lost in translation' because it's thought that a piece of meat with a high amount of fat = the cow lived a generally good life, but that's not always the case.

So I guess my next question is: is it possible for British beef to have the same sort of marbling (specifically the brisket) as an American cow that's pumped full of corn and steroids? 😂

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49 minutes ago, ExclusiveBBQ said:

That seems to be the point... The majority of USA beef comes from cows fed on grain because that's the quickest way to fatten them up. The resulting meat has a high fat content (measured by the marbling) and therefore gets graded highly by the USDA. From what I can tell, this message gets 'lost in translation' because it's thought that a piece of meat with a high amount of fat = the cow lived a generally good life, but that's not always the case.

So I guess my next question is: is it possible for British beef to have the same sort of marbling (specifically the brisket) as an American cow that's pumped full of corn and steroids? 😂

There's another part of the book that talks about Japanese wagyu beef, and while it has the most impressive marbling of any beef they've ever tried, they said when they tasted it, you get this glorious mouth-coating fattiness, but the flavour dies away really quickly, and they were rather unimpressed. 

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20 hours ago, sub333 said:

There's another part of the book that talks about Japanese wagyu beef, and while it has the most impressive marbling of any beef they've ever tried, they said when they tasted it, you get this glorious mouth-coating fattiness, but the flavour dies away really quickly, and they were rather unimpressed. 

That seems controversial - but I've not had Wagyu either so I can't disagree either! I suppose part of the experience is the 'mouth feel' too...

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  • 2 weeks later...
On 6/26/2019 at 8:24 PM, sub333 said:

Right, here are some pearls of wisdom about the merits of grass-fed beef vs corn-fed beef from the Hawksmoor book that I've summarised  (the book is excellent, btw – loads of great recipes and a great drinks section). I can't vouch for the accuracy of what they say, but I'd be surprised if it was wide of the mark. Of course, they're not going to criticise their own product, but I'd be very interested to hear what other forumers think.

---

They visit Tim Wilson's farm in North Yorkshire. The cows graze on grass made up of several old-fashioned varieties that would have grown in the area 100 years ago. They say most farms use a cheap, reliable Italian rye grass mix, but this particular farm uses red and white clover, meadow fescue, chicory, cock's-foot and Yorkshire fog. 

In the States, most cattle spend their days eating dried and flaked GM corn mixed with high-protein supplements. 

They quote Mark Schatzker's Steak book, in which he describes opening his car door and being greeted by "the olfactory wallop of 32,000 defecating cattle", with a strong wind containing "fecal dust". "They were crowded together, 50,000 of them, in numbers and concentration you wouldn't ever find in nature, standing in textbook filth next to an open-air sewage lagoon, eating a powdery substance [flaked corn] that was dispensed by a truck."

The cattle munch away, putting on weight very quickly, and this rapid weight gain is the key to the high levels of intra-muscular fat (ie, marbling) that the USDA looks for when grading meat.

The Hawksmoor cattle are sent to slaughter after 30 months or so, while in the States it's usually 12-14 months, and after growth hormones are administered to help them gain huge amounts of muscle mass.

A cow's digestive system isn't designed to cope with corn, especially not in the quantities they eat on cattle farms, so antibiotics are regularly given to prevent their guts and livers from failing – cattle consume 70% of all antibiotics administered in the US.

They quote from Harold McGee's McGee on Food and Cooking, who says that grass, a living leafy plant, is high in "odorous substances". Dried corn isn't, not does it contain many nutrients, whereas grass is rich in Vitamin B, as well as Vitamin E and beta-carotene.

As a result, grass-fed beef has a decent level of Omega 3 fatty acids, whereas American beef may contain traces of antibiotics, hormones and growth promoters, which is why it's illegal to import it directly to the UK (it has to be done via Ireland or Holland).

They say that corn-fed beef is rather one-dimensional, whereas grass-fed is more rounded and complex, and while they've enjoyed some corn-fed steaks, most have disappointed, with many "bland and oily with an unsatisfyingly mushy texture", which might explain why many Americans often reach for the steak sauce. 

They also bemoan the fact that in Argentina, feedlots are now the norm, and after the 2001 economic crash there, "swathes of lush, fertile pasture [were] converted into soya bean and corn crops, which at the time were fetching a good price on the global market. Cattle were diverted to poorer grazing land and more and more were herded into giant feedlots to gorge on dried flaked corn. Up until 1990, all Argentinian beef was grass-fed, but by 2009, 75% of beef came from feedlots…and by 2011, the Argentina Independent said it was almost impossible to buy grass-fed beef in the country." 

They add that just because beef is grass-fed, it doesn't automatically make it good. As grass is a living plant, there are many variables that determine its nutritional value, such as the varieties planted, the location, the temperature, the time of year and the soil etc. Some pastures will be missing minerals and nutrients if the land was previously used for intensive farming – and they say this is why it's very difficult to rear cattle on grass in many areas of the US. 

Also, in winter, the cows at the Yorkshire farm are in the barn eating hay and "haylage" (halfway between hay and silage), and in the final six weeks of their lives, they do eat some grain in the form of barley (along with peas, broad beans, mixed with a little molasses) – the farmer says this is to ensure they put down a thick layer of backfat, which is essential if the carcasses are going to be hung for a decent amount of time. 

Oh, and regarding the USDA classification: they say it was devised by cattlemen in the Midwest in the 1920s during an agricultural recession, in an effort to boost demand. They managed to persuade the country that "the muscular tissues of animals are made tender and fully flavoured only by the presence of plenty of fat".

---

As I mentioned before, I did try both types side by side at a steak restaurant in London a few years ago. I was expecting both to be great, but I found the grass-fed vastly superior. The corn-fed steak had a soft, almost buttery texture, but it just lacked a beefy oomph that I love with good steaks I've had (in the UK). The restaurant manager said he personally preferred the corn-fed, so I guess it's just matter of taste. And I know some people don't like their meat to have that full-on "meaty" (for want of a better word) taste. Really good pork, for example, does have that slightly funky, farmyard whiff to it (!) which some/many people don't like, and obviously offal isn't to all tastes. But let me know what you think 😀

 

Absolutely brilliant read. Great research there!

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On 6/26/2019 at 10:01 PM, ExclusiveBBQ said:

I didn't want to quote the whole thing but thanks so much for writing that out. It's fascinating stuff and answers a lot of questions I had - definitely gives the vibe that British meat, especially beef, has its advantages.

Would love to be able to try them side by side as well, it sounds like there's a huge difference!

That could be a video for you there. 

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Has anyone looked into whether you can cook British brisket the same way as US? From what’s been put on this thread I wouldn’t want to support a practice that allows the animals to be kept in those conditions. 

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27 minutes ago, Simon said:

That could be a video for you there. 

Definitely!
The restaurant I tried them side-by-side at was the New Street Grill just off Liverpool Street.
Just had a look at their website, and they still offer both (I was there about 5-6 years ago):

image.thumb.png.f1a5f76da6e0bb60396a9614a895769d.png

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11 minutes ago, Simon said:

Has anyone looked into whether you can cook British brisket the same way as US? From what’s been put on this thread I wouldn’t want to support a practice that allows the animals to be kept in those conditions. 

Without getting on my soapbox, it does puzzle me why people get so hot under the collar about things like foie gras when they are happy to buy a chicken for three quid that's never seen the light of day and is probably covered in ammonia burns and scratchmarks from other chickens weeing all over it and fighting etc. But perhaps that's a discussion for another thread! 😁

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I try to buy my meat from a good source. It may cost more but if I haven’t the money I just won’t buy meat. I find meat from a butcher such a better standard but maybe that is just in my head. 

Maybe there is a threat in where meat can be sourced. 

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I have just ordered a couple of different pork cuts from here, but they sell whole briskets or prepared to how you want. Don't know how price compares to other retailers, but free delivery over £45 so no extra delivery on top.

Seemed a very knowledgeable guy I spoke to on the phone, very helpful and preparing both pieces of pork to my spec and just adds them to the website to be able to purchase. Felt like being in a local butchers asking for what I wanted, but over the phone.

My first order so can't comment on quality yet. But came away happy with the customer service experience I got.

p.s. The Jacobs ladder in the photo, look pretty good to me as well, 

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18 minutes ago, sotv said:

I have just ordered a couple of different pork cuts from here, but they sell whole briskets or prepared to how you want. Don't know how price compares to other retailers, but free delivery over £45 so no extra delivery on top.

Seemed a very knowledgeable guy I spoke to on the phone, very helpful and preparing both pieces of pork to my spec and just adds them to the website to be able to purchase. Felt like being in a local butchers asking for what I wanted, but over the phone.

My first order so can't comment on quality yet. But came away happy with the customer service experience I got.

p.s. The Jacobs ladder in the photo, look pretty good to me as well, 

I have used them and first class

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1 hour ago, sotv said:

I have just ordered a couple of different pork cuts from here, but they sell whole briskets or prepared to how you want. Don't know how price compares to other retailers, but free delivery over £45 so no extra delivery on top.

Seemed a very knowledgeable guy I spoke to on the phone, very helpful and preparing both pieces of pork to my spec and just adds them to the website to be able to purchase. Felt like being in a local butchers asking for what I wanted, but over the phone.

My first order so can't comment on quality yet. But came away happy with the customer service experience I got.

p.s. The Jacobs ladder in the photo, look pretty good to me as well, 

Looks good - might have to check them out. I like the idea of racking up a ton of points... :) 

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I contacted my local Costco (Birmingham) regarding the sourcing of USDA brisket. Their response was:

We currently sell NY Strip (sirloin) and Rib Eye USDA Prime Beef.

We do continually look at bringing in US meat to supplement our core range of mainly British meat. it is generally likely to be viable to import from the US on more expensive cuts (so that transport costs are proportionately lower) and cuts for which the relative demand is higher in UK/Europe than in US.

Unfortunately, the brisket is typically used in slow smoking/barbecuing which is much more prevalent in US than here. Demand will therefore be higher in the US market, also this cut is not from a high value part of beef cattle. For this reason it is unlikely we would be able to offer them in the near future, however, we do sell Aberdeen Angus Brisket. 

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  • 4 weeks later...

A decent sized trimmed full brisket is a challenge to come by I find it's amazing how many local butchers are unclear on what your looking for when explained to them. I have thankfully found a couple of butchers who are happy to talk you through what you want in front of the carcass. You just need to plan to get there at the beginning of the week when the carcass is butchered. There is still an issue when trying to get a 5/6kg trimmed meat. Most end up nearer 3kg which is really to small with an all but useless flat that ends up only good for burnt ends as its to thin. 

The feedback I've had from local butchers is the size of the carcase they order for both beef and pork is usually driven by the sales demand for a week. No point in oversized carcasses if you can't sell it through in a week. This can be seen with pork ribs, often tiny. The only way I can get great sized St Louis cut ribs is go directly to a pig farmer who sell their own meat. 

It's not easy but great locally sourced meat is out there. It just takes time to seek these butchers out. 

Cheers n Gone Nick

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16 hours ago, Skagg2000 said:

A decent sized trimmed full brisket is a challenge to come by I find it's amazing how many local butchers are unclear on what your looking for when explained to them. I have thankfully found a couple of butchers who are happy to talk you through what you want in front of the carcass. You just need to plan to get there at the beginning of the week when the carcass is butchered. There is still an issue when trying to get a 5/6kg trimmed meat. Most end up nearer 3kg which is really to small with an all but useless flat that ends up only good for burnt ends as its to thin. 

The feedback I've had from local butchers is the size of the carcase they order for both beef and pork is usually driven by the sales demand for a week. No point in oversized carcasses if you can't sell it through in a week. This can be seen with pork ribs, often tiny. The only way I can get great sized St Louis cut ribs is go directly to a pig farmer who sell their own meat. 

It's not easy but great locally sourced meat is out there. It just takes time to seek these butchers out. 

Cheers n Gone Nick

You sum it up perfectly - it's out there, but it takes a bit of time and some effort to seek them out. I actually had a great experience with Turner & George recently after ordering meat online and asking for them to leave some fat on; the meat came prepared as close to perfect as I've seen it and the taste was incredible. 

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